 | Talk:List of people known as war heroes: Encyclopedia II - Talk:List of people known as war heroes - Ariel Sharon
Talk:List of people known as war heroes - Ariel Sharon
Why does Ariel Sharon deserve to be here? See why I advocated this page be deleted to begin with? RickK 02:55, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Sharon is one of the biggest war heroes in Israel, particularly for 1973. Ironically, his WP bio goes to so much trouble to cast aspersions, it leaves out the part where a considerable percentage of the Israeli public regards him as their Eisenhower or Nelson (I don't, but I'm not going to tell people in other countries who their heroes should be). The list makes perfect sense, if one sticks to "heroism" as it was defined for the person and the time - a hero of ancient Rome looks like a bloodthirsty savage to us today. Stan 04:01, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I agree. If you can, you might add more info in Ariel_Sharon#Six-Day_and_Yom_Kippur_Wars. MathKnight 20:02, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Its just a pity his actions since then have been less than heroic. Also, please noth that Admiral Nelson is not in the list.Cokehabit 07:55, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, you called for its deletion w/o giving it the consideration i think it that would deserve, bcz you sound surprised at his presence, despite the fact that he's been on it from the first edit.
In any case: (--Jerzy 07:58, 2004 Jan 14 (UTC); i continue in next section)
Talk:List of people known as war heroes - RK's RickK's 1st Question
(I know you meant "deserve" in a funny way, and hope you're someone to cloud your own judgement with the language by which some would unconsciously encourage themselves to worry about benefit to those covered in articles, when we should be worrying about benefiting the users with well-chosen information.) He is there bcz the info abt him fits the criterion, namely
This list of notable war heroes does not make judgements about what constitutes "true" heroism, but rather acknowledges that the fact that the term is normally used to designate anyone serving a miltary role in time of hostilities, who is treated as an outstanding example of honorable service by their chain of command, and especially by their comrades in arms and that portion of the populace of their state (and allied states) that identifies with the state's war aims. In particular, being free of guilt as a war criminal, or as a traitor, is in no sense implied by inclusion here.
And he got on the list early bcz of a sentence that caught my eye, some time ago, at Ariel Sharon and currently reads
Sharon is widely considered a war criminal, although many zionists see him as a hero.
I noticed it bcz
- i have considered Sharon to be a war criminal ever since the Shatilla/Sabra massacres, and
- when i read abt his military career (immediately following the ToC), it seemed to me that he belongs to that category of MacArthuresque loose cannons who are a danger to their own states but nevertheless are counted as heroes, for discernable reasons that don't mean the people with that opinion have defective brains.
I wrote, probably now on Talk:List of people known as war heroes/delete about "the war hero" as a social phenomenon. (I'll add that here when i have time to track it down.) IMO, Sharon is one of the especially pathological cases that are worthy of inclusion in the attention of people who refer to an encyclopedia in the process of studying and thinking about the war-hero phenomenon. That's my reason. (--Jerzy 07:58, 2004 Jan 14 (UTC); i continue in next section)
Talk:List of people known as war heroes - RK's RickK's 2nd Question
No, i don't see this casting light on why you favored deletion. What exactly made you advocate deletion? And why are you (apparently) so sure Sharon doesn't belong in the august company of Rommel, Benedict Arnold, and maybe Caesar? --Jerzy 07:58, 2004 Jan 14 (UTC)
Because, as I said on VfD when I suggested this be deleted, that the use of the term "war hero" is inherently POV. RickK 16:48, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Your repeating yourself here does help, saving my tracking down what you said before, tho my hope had been that you'd be willing to amplify. (I don't doubt i read it there, and the word "inherently" in fact sticks in my mind. BTW, while i may not have responded to you directly there, i'm pretty sure i at least responded to someone by saying something that spoke equally well to that objection. But i'd rather directly address your reiteration here than lean on that old response.) In the meantime, let me say why i think amplification by you is needed (and must have been needed back on Vfd).
No doubt there is something compelling behind
the use of the term "war hero" is inherently POV
since you are willing to repeat it without amplification. But in itself it is too sparse to communicate (i'll hazard to anyone who doesn't already agree with you about retention being an error) what you're talking about. I'd rather have moved forward from a more substantial statement from you, but let me try something: your words "the use" could mean "anyone's use" or "the particular way this article makes use".
- If you meant "anyone's use", you have to have been making a distinction between what might be called "direct use" and "meta-use", and restricting your meaning to "direct use". I insist (without trying to speak for others whom i recall as making the same point) that i have tried repeatedly to make the point that there is no direct use of the term "war hero", but rather information on contexts in which widespread direct use (however PoV that direct use is) has been made.
- please consider addressing its approach in detail.
I intended that criterion specifically to avoid PoV use of "war hero", and i assert that it succeeds. (There is, as with every article, of course some subjectivity involved in "notable" and in the implicit "[widely] known", of the kind we routinely wrestle with on Vfd and everywhere else; that's not, or not significantly, more problematic here than in most articles.)
In summary, my attempts to interpret, in a non-absurd sense, your reiterated statement of why retention was mistaken, lead me to attribute to you at least one of three non-absurd but still false statements. But perhaps your future more detailed statement of what you mean by
the use of the term "war hero" is inherently POV
will be able to change my understanding.
I note you chose not to respond to either my comments in #RK's Rick's 1st Question or to my slightly ironic assertion that Sharon is merely one of several distasteful (to me and perhaps to you) well-known beneficiaries of what i've been calling the "war-hero phenomenon". I'll speak, pending any clarification by you, much as if you had, on reflection and/or in light of my comments in that subsection, explicitly agreed that your mention of his name added no light to this discussion. --Jerzy 19:47, 2004 Jan 14 (UTC)
Talk:List of people known as war heroes - Denouement
Jerzy, I have no interest in getting into a babbling contest with you. I've said what I have to say on the subject. And please note, I AM NOT RK!!!!!RickK 04:10, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Rick, really sorry, tho i'm sure you'll understand you are one of the RKs; i admit i assumed (erroneously, and obviously so now that you mention), that you were User:RK.
Of course you're under no obligation to discuss this, especially as it develops you have essentially nothing you care to say. If i seemed to put demands on you, i didn't mean to.
I thot about suggesting you "meet me", not half-way, but a quarter of the way toward my verbosity: i'm naturally verbose, but that was exaggerated by your cryptic terseness; if you'd been willing to say 1/4 as much as i did, i think i'd have been able to have said 1/4 of what i did. [shrug] --Jerzy 07:50, 2004 Jan 15 (UTC)
Other related archives@, T, C, Aerodotus, Alfons Rebane, Andres, Ariel Sharon, Ariel_Sharon#Six-Day_and_Yom_Kippur_Wars, Benedict Arnold, Cokehabit, DJ Clayworth, Erwin Rommel, Friedrich von Paulus, Horatio Nelson, Jerzy, Johan Laidoner, Lembitu, List of Estonians, List of notable war heroes, MathKnight, Muriel, NeoChrono Ryu, RickK, Ryan Norton, Secretlondon, Stan, Talk:List of people known as war heroes/delete, Theodore Roosevelt, User: Martijn faassen, User:RK, Vfd, War hero, Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/List_of_people_known_as_war_heroes, vfd, war hero, war-hero
 Adapted from the Wikipedia article "Ariel Sharon", under the G.N U Free Docmentation License. Please also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki |
